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 Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?

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Kiri-Jolith
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PostSubject: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:42 pm

Since I started building, the topic of random ability scores has been tossed around.

For those who don't know what that is, you roll 4d6 (dice, rerolling on a 1), discard the lowest dice, and asssigning the total of the remaining 3 to your ability scores(Str, Dex, Int) etc.

This has its ups and downs as compared to the bioware way of doing it.

Random = Ups: Possible 18's on all ability scores, and then racial bonuses on top. Downs: Possible 6 on all ability scores(Unplayable Character, at which a complete reroll would be allowed).

Bioware = Ups: Abilities chosen on a maximum allowed formula. Down: Limited to maximum values due to points spent, not random.
Problem: Random alows for re-rolling of character till all 18's are rolled. Bioware allows for planning your character in advance its easier to power game. Both systems have potential for abuse, and while normally a log-in filling up with chars on the selection screen would be an issue, I had intended to let players delete their own chars...

Keep in mind, the entire thing doesn't -have- to be tampered with at all. But I'm open to idea's and input.



Technical Note: It can be setup to give each player the choice of which system to use, or it can be a "one for all" sort of thing as well. A timer can be set up for how many characters per time period, i.e: One character Per 8 hours/Day/week.
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 pm

Random sounds interesting.

Is it possable to limit the how many Pc's one could create per account ? May prove interesting if you could as aposed to how many per day, week or month.

For example:

1). You get to roll 4 Pc's per account: (Limits one just logging in when the time has expired and rerolling to be lucky and max the stats out in time)

2). To have a Pc deleted you would need a Dm to do it for you and give a reason why: (Reasons same as above but would help monitor the pc's and keep the abuse controlled)

3). Its a rp server for the most part your first set of rolls unless just drasticaly bad should be good enough: (You still get to place your strong points with your better rolls so it shouldnt be a real issue. and if they are bad it falls under (#2 above) And tell a Dm and you'll be allowed a reroll)


In closing I think it may enhance game play if a set of rules are followed upon how it works.
There are many pluses in that set up.

Again for example:

1). Creates a random Pc ability wise

2). Limits Power building in both Power builds for hack and slash as well as rping skill wise to a point, people always find a way but they will have to get a tad more creative.

3). Keeps things more random that way and just becasue one is a fighter/wm/rogue or a Bard/Pale/Rdd dosent mean a Rogue/Bard thats played more for rp couldn't take them down, for the (Random) set up dosent allow the normal HEAVY ability placing that Bioware dose and one will never know just by the build type how strong or weak they are for sure. Now with that said there will always be for the most part the classes that are some what stronger but again not all will be the same still due to the (Random) set up makes for different Pc's even tho the build style and goal are the same.

4). Subraces and Moster races, It will also help balance them off . For now you cant Spread out your stats just right to coincide with the Subrace or Monster races skills pluses and Minuses


So how I see it is that the (Random) Option will make for a more unique Server play,Will take the typical styles of power building on both sides and add a random twist to it. You never know how strong or weak your foe really is as well as how you aproach the monsters in the game. Same for rp you may have stronger skill placement but by making them stronger you now had to weaken your physical abilities lower then you normaly would, or you Hit it big and rolled well and got the best of both worlds and can defend against those annoying block heads. It's all on how you look at it. Oh and try not to hit this Block head too hard affraid Grraah..!

Hope something like this is what you were looking in responce to your post Kiri

Your Local Angery Ogre affraid ~I crush you's~
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:27 am

It is a hard choice.

I hate to say it but we all know there are people out will try over and over to get all 18's. For me a char starting out at all 18;s just doesnt sound RPish. A first lvl char with those stats seems wrong to me but I can see maybe one ability at 18. You know 18 str for a fighter, 18 dex for a rogue etc etc.

I rember a game (Icewind Dale I beleive) when it came to the ability scores there was a button you click it would randomly give you all 6 abilities at the same time. Exp so I hope you all can understand rember Im working for old memories.
Ok when you got to the ability screen it will all ready gave you your score for exp
STr- 16
Dex- 17
Con - 9
Int- 12
Wis- 8
Cha 10

Now if you didnt want these ability scores you can hit the reroll and then it would give you another set of ability scores and if you didnt like them you can keep going until you get what you want.

I dont know if you Kiri could make it like this at the start but how about doing some thing like this in the weclome area in the server. Where you have to reset your ability scores.
You can reroll up to five times and each set of score will be save and the player can pick what set he or she will take. It will make it random. if I remeber playing the game i never seen all 18's I try to get all 18's but I gave up after about a 1/2 hour.

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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:02 am

That system your talking about could click and it would have a random place roll but you could subtract those abiltiy points down to 13 then spread them out where you want them and all you have to do is look for the highest total I think it was around 74 with all the abilitiy points added together then just spread it out that way and there is your 18's or close to it.



And as far as the 18's you can come close to that now in game as it is now I can get a pc with

At 16th level:

Str: 52 End(64)
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Wis: 16 End(20)
Int: 14
Cha: 6

This could be shifted in many ways to form a even more balanced Pc if needed as well. and this is done with no exploits of any kind all proper guide lines followed.

The way it is now allows such offsets.

Now if you allow rerolls x5 per Pc you'll still have people rolling ...and rolling remaking pc's till they get thier good stat's and still having a off balance system where power building of both kinds are still abused.

People will always find away to better a Pc. its why I think the limit of Pc's per account would work well followed by the reroll and a Dm to delete a Pc if needed would work.

As posted above makes for random Pc's. far as 18's if system was done in some way as I posted those would still be rare and there could Be a Pc Born with such abilities as there are in real life powerful athletes that have high IQ's and could be the other way around High IQ and good physical power they are far and few between but they are out there.

But your point to a Locked in Ability roll per stat may be worth a look it would create and add to the random Pc not being able to place your stats the way you like them at all. If it could even be done.

Also have to try not to tweek things too much with stats and builds trying to balance it all out sometimes takes the fun out of the Game after all it is a "Game" and perhaps lean more on punishing the abusers.

Dont take my post the wrong way I just toss out what could and would be done.
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:33 pm

~nods nods~ Agreed. It could go so far as to have the system randomly generate your ability scores and place them for you.

But the thing is, just b/c it -can- be done, doesn't mean it -should- be done. It -is- a game and supposed to be fun. But there will -always- be a way to squeeze every ounce of power out of a build. I'm a power gamer myself, ask anyone who's met Crovax. So these are the things I look for when building. I can leave the existing system bioware uses as the default and then roll a random d4 penalty to subtract from those scores, also randomizing them. A provision could be left in place to not modify your classes Main stat. i.e: Int for Wiz, Wis for Cleric, Dex for Rogue, etc. so your class wouldn't be unplayable.

But this is all theory, and I need a conclusion before I work on this system, else I'll have to program for ALL alternatives, and setup a series of switches to either use or not use them as needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:00 am

I like to know how you (Twisted Vision) got a char to 52 str at 16th lvl?

After smoking a cigarette i realized it is not the the ability score at creation screen that makes a powerbuild it is the player abusing the char class comb's to make a superPC.

The system we are using now it the better way to do ability score I think we should control the char classes not the ability score creation. Crovax is a powerful char just image if he started with all 18's.

I beleive we just use the system we are use rite now and have a discussion on what classes/mutli class are to be allowed or not allowed to be played

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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:18 am

I did make a typo One that post I wont hit 64 str I dubbled when adding up sorry for that.

But in responce to your post (Will) It's Moster race + Class bonuses + Gear

Now He is a Ogre and His Str wont change as he level's after the Said 52 Str, Ogres are Strong powerful Monsters and when faced in Melee Combat they are supose to make thier foes Exhale with the thought of having to go toe to toe with them.

Now on the other side of that they have just as strong weaknesses that if a foe attacks that weakness it send the Ogres walking around drooling on themselfs or find that they are now doing the dirty work for some Vile mage of some sort.

The Ogre is my main you wont see me throwing my Str around with Ooc look at me Im awsomethen attack everyone. I also have a story line with the classes I have taken so its not just a use for all the right stuff.

I will make Pc how ever the Dm's and the player base see as exceptable. If it is out of line and a Dm wishes it changed I will.

I mention this because I seen it happen many of times if we start to down grade Classes and races next to come is feats, abilities then spells. But remember every build, race, class has a weakness its up to the Pc in game to find that weakness or even get creative and Rp any such encounters and based upon the rp anything can happen once the Dice come out.

It is a rp server not like one is going to just run up and go smash your dead for no reason and if one dose I'm sure one screen shot sent here and the Dm's would handle it.

Take this combo using the strongest Dragoniain selection it balances out to what the Ogre offers and better in a few ways to tell you the truth.

Race: Lightning Dragoniain Noble

Classes: Fighter 10 / Rouge 11 / Weapons master 19

All are level 40

Str: 48
Dex: 14
Con: 20
Wis: 10
Int: 14
Cha: 8

Saves on the low end high20's
Saves on the high end mid to low 30's

Uncanny dodge, Improved evasion

Spell resistance: (26)

Haste

And some minor spell like abilities from the monster race fun to use but not really effective in high level places.

Ab around or better +66/+61/+56/+51

Ac 68 ish could be better or lower all depends on the set up

Weapon damage well go with the bastard sword:

1d10+25 (15-20x3 crit) + (6d6 sneak)

These are equil or even better then the Ogre's stats posted above and even knocking the str down to 38 dosent change much really you lose what 5 ab and damage still have +61/+56/+51/+46 Damage 1d10+20 (15-20x3) (6d6 Sneak)

So there will always be a way to make anything better now this is only a Strong build One could complain about a rp heavy build set up for the best possable over all dice rolls that just sits around the city never goes out and waits to be able to break out the Dice to unleash his rping power build that has well placed skill points and stats place to in prove those as well.

In my case I happen to like the fighting part of the game and enjoy the rping as well I make my pc's to match how I want them to be and funtion based on thier Story lines Do I only make strong Pc's no there are other cleaver ways to play so many things to use that could even bring a impossable foe to there knees its all in how you use what you have in game.

Now with this post I want to be clear its not directed to anger anyone its to add to open talks.

As it stands now Will of let and myself are the ones posting mostly aside from random times Others post at the moment few are on the server.

I will be happy to add, comment, respond to any issues or questions to help the server in rping and funtion that I may

But my only concern is that the server will start restricting everything but if I understand correctly Kiri has some class set up's for the monster races and such so this will add another twist to things so will adjust the possable combos and even make some better who knows till its set up.

So in closing I would say we continue to post our thoughts and concerns here on the forums as we are and wait and see what the direction of the server is going in. But spend most effort into developing a in game atmostphere for there is none now and without it there is honestly little concern for the other suff if none are on to bother .

Just some thoughts

Thank's your local angery Ogre affraid
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:47 pm

Valid points all the way around.

Crovax was a 23sorc/5bg/12rogue. His weakness was high ac chars. He just couldn't hit'em. At which point he resorted to spells. A monk was the only thing he couldn't stop. The AC/SR made him totally impotent...

Umm. The Dragonlance Dungeons & Dragons Manuals have class restrictions for races in them if that's the route we should go by. This has it's ups and downs, like so many other things. I'd post what they all were, but that would take at least a day of research, and another day of preperation/posting, and that's 2 days the new module makes no progress...

But to give an example, the Wizards of High Sorcery all but forbids Kender/Gnome wizards. It doesn't say the are totally unheard of, but they are were far and few between. I've heard both sides of the argument, "I've never read/heard of a kender wizard in dragonlance." & "My kender did this, and trained under them...." and we have an RP rational behind a kender wizard. (Actualy happened on this server before)

The options that can be used to control radical character builds is a.) DMs unlock those classes for forbidden race X, or b.) Use end-game quests to unlock a class for a forbidden race, and c.) a Wish. (Note: Wishes come via items, and a 9th lvl wizard/sorc spell).

My opinion:
a.) DMs have too much power as is, and that can create a totaly one-sides player base.
I'm against this option.
b.) Always a favorite of mine, but that comes from playing so much WoW. This makes a player play through the module as a normal "krynnian", before allowing them the ability to create a radical char, so they will at least be versed in dragonlance lore, and can play the char appropriately.And if they do not, that privalege can be revoked.
I favor this option.
c.) Wishes come with a huge a XP & Material price. In the ballpark of 15,000 xp & 250,000 gp worth of material components for EACH Wish. (This applies to item wishes as well.) It also requires a high level wiz/sorc to cast, unless recieved from item (These are rare, and end-game) only. To come up with the extra xp, and the materials will be very time consuming. (Don't worry about DMs just dumping the items on a player. They can't. As a matter of fact, I'm contemplating removing a DMs ability to spawn items altogether.)
I'm also in favor of the Wish idea.


As you can see, there are any number of ways to manipulate the default system to accomplish whatever ends are needed. What I'm trying to accomplish is to a.) Make a FUN game. B.) Maintain a level playing field. c.) Keep as true to Dragonlance lore and D&D game mechanics as possible.

As I've said before, Just because I can, doesn't mean I should.


Side Note: The D&D PHB (Players Handbook) says to use the 4d6 method. So how hardcore D&D should we go with it?
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:18 pm

I say worry about getting the game going forget about tweeking classes, races and the likes for the moment and focus on getting it all set up.

Then once its online and working and there are some Dm's in place that are on often, talks and choices can be made if tweeking.

For now to bother with tweeking aside of the Monster / Subrace classes you are thinking of is a complete waste of your time reallY Imo.



So he is My thoughts on you posted questions:

1). I think Monster / subrace's as classes could add a nice twist to the current Nwn format

2). As far as the 4d6 for stat rolls as I posted before I think makes it so even the same builds with the same goals are not the same so I think I may find that a different aproach worth looking into and trying it out .


Just like to see the server get rolling have a player base come in and the place get some life to it then worry about the issues dont want to people to login and go oh great another one of these places after reading all the tweeks instead of going Wow check this place out they got some cool classes for Monsters and subrace's and a cool weapons system as well and hmm this is a different way to do stat rolls .. then have them want to come at a place unlike most they often play .
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:50 pm

~nods~ noted, and you're right. But this is important, and is a major system. It needs to be hammered out, and it will, in-fact, be after beta testing before this system is even touched. But I can read between the lines. I'll get straight to work. ~winks, and salutes smartly~
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:18 pm

Heh Laughing I hope I didnt come across bad on any of my posts?

Oh on a side note Will any of us that are sticking around threw all this be allowed to relevel our current Pc's ( Based upon the new the set up of course ) once the server is back up or are we going to lose all ? That question can up with another in game so I figured I would post the question here and find out what the answer is?

At the monet there are few on I see will off and on I on a lot and a Dwarf forget his name then there are about 3 or so others in and out at odd times

And I didnt know the server was in beta thought you were just changing things.
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:46 pm

We are building a totaly new server. As far as retaining levels... The mod needs to be beta tested from lvl 1 onwards. But on the up side, I will ramp up the xp. Beta testing is purely volunteer, and it will in no way impact your char/play on the current module.

lol. And nah. You didn't come across bad. I just try to be as concise as possible most the time. =p
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PostSubject: Re: Random Ability Scores....Your thoughts?   Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:48 am

Just in case Twisited Vision in my post I was not questionong your build, I saw that 52 str at 16 I was wondering what was your secrect.

Tylor is the same classes has Twisted lighting draconain exp. The porblem with making a stat high has 48 you lose a lot of feats which can cause many weakest. Like Crovax, Tylor has problems with the Monks.

What I mean about classes restirctions is.
1) Some classes just dont fit in the DragonLance them, just to name a few RDD,
Shadowdancer.

2) Class combs, Has we here have the rule that you be at least 5 lvls in a class before 40 and like most of Dragonlance servers this rule is pretty much the same. I seen one server they made a rule that if you are a monk or Cleric you had to have 15 lvls do to the fact you have to be very decited to your God.

Without some restrication there will be a lot of player building hack and slash chars. I been playing on this server for a long time. I have killed many PC and I have been killed by many PC. I guess what Im trying to say, it pisses me off when Im fighting someone and he disappear in front of me eyes (they werent using a potion, scroll or spell). If Tylor and Crovax fought an I lost I would not be pissed I would try to find someway to beat him. But I hate to say there were a few on the server that had no weakest. Enough of me rambling.

Kiri I cant rember which book I read (it was on the old server posting) but it was before The downfall of Istar I beleive, There was note that there was two kenders that were Wizards of High Sorcery

I have seen other server that before you can play radical char you had to prove yourself. Only draw back is it can lead into favoritezem.

Im on when I can be, as the wife said only thing I do is work and sleep.

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